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View Poll Results: Is http://www.ityt.com/airtran/accidenthistory.php true about/fair to AirTran?
Yes 2 28.57%
No 5 71.43%
Voters: 7. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 09-11-2003, 08:17 PM   #1
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Accident history...

Often in the course of the many discussions between jetmech717/haze/b717mech and dbaker/nugget, the Airtran guys claim that the portrayal of Airtrain on ityt is unfair. I'm wondering if you can point out any specific incidents (post Sept 1996) on http://www.ityt.com/airtran/accidenthistory.php that you feel are untrue or unfair?
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Old 09-11-2003, 09:47 PM   #2
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Mduell I cant keep complaining about the same things everytime. I have told Dbaker multiple, multiple, multiple times that his warning page on AirTran has slewed and incorrect info. There are multiple pics of the same airplane at different angles, but are said to be different incidents, He says that a 717 had a fire, when I can assure you that a 717 that we own has never had a fire onboard. I have repeatedly asked him to correct this mis-information, and he has not. Now you tell me how this is fair when he can create a web site and bash an airline on bad info that he got from who knows were?
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Old 09-11-2003, 11:02 PM   #3
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This appears to be the burning 717: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief.asp?e...09X00464&key=1

A number of the burning aircraft pictures aren't identified by tail number, just by model, so its difficult to tell if they are seprate incidents, but the page never claims that they are (the two that occur at ATL may be the same, I'm not sure).

Can you point me at any of the other information (espically from the accident history page) that you believe to be incorrect? I'd rather not talk about the various bits of opinion near the information.
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Old 09-12-2003, 05:16 AM   #4
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That NTSB report says nothing about a fire just a burning smell. It was infact the left PCDU (power conversion and distribution unit) that overheated and created the smell but there was no fire. It was discovered that the cooling hose going to the unit was installed wrong from Boeing had had a sharp bend in it which created a kink and caused reduced airflow which after time finally overheated the unit. After this incident all of our 717's were checked and repaired as necessary.
I have looked a some of the reports on that page. Most of these were just indication problems not actual problems, for instance the cargo fire in MLI. It was just and indication problem, but the crew declared an emergency and fired off one of the fire bottles for the cargo bin. Whenever a crew has fire indication they must by procedure declare an emergency. When that is done the NTSB is always notifed and intial report is always filed.
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Old 09-12-2003, 06:26 AM   #5
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Bakers web site posted but with no links:
Quote:
1996/11/02 737 Kansas City, MO Flap problems
1996/12/07 DC-9 Atlanta, GA Collision with baggage cart
1998/11/1 737-223 Dallas, TX Gear failure during landing, crash 13 injured
1999/04/10 DC-9 Buffalo, NY Blown tire
1999/08/16 737 Newark, NJ Cargo door open
1999/08/18 737 Dallas, TX Blown tire; hydraulic failure
1999/08/22 DC-9 Bloomington, IL Landing gear failure
1999/12/16 737 Atlanta, GA Rudder problems
2000/05/07 717 Orlando, FL Smoke in the cockpit
2000/05/26 717 Atlanta, GA Total electrical failure
2000/08/08 DC-9 Greensboro, NC Fire, smoke in the cockpit 10 injured
2000/11/29 DC-9 Atlanta, GA Cargo/electrical fire
2001/02/26 Unknown Williamsburg, VA Smoke in cabin
2001/07/16 DC-9 Quad City Intl, IL Cargo fire
2002/03/02 DC-9 Bloomington, IL Pressurization failure
2002/11/01 DC-9 Pittsburgh, PA Smoke in cabin
2003/03/26 717 New York, NY Multiple electrical failures 9 injured
ok mduell, This is some of the stuff we're talking about. baker picks and chooses alot of things that happen to all airlines not just us. Still he has not given facts on most of these entries....
1996/11/02 737 Kansas City, MO Flap problems what flap problem?was this indication? show me facts!
1996/12/07 DC-9 Atlanta, GA Collision with baggage cart So what, ground equipment is all around the plane, I hate It when it happens more than anyone, but it does. Hell a Delta tug just hit 1 of our planes 3 weeks ago.
1998/11/1 737-223 Dallas, TX Gear failure during landing, crash 13 injured This 1 is all screwed up. Baker says its a gear failure, now this is a prime example that he does not know what he's talking about. This a/c took off and had a hydraulic failure and came back to land and lost some steering and braking, and veered off the runway. Not a gear failure.
1999/04/10 DC-9 Buffalo, NY Blown tire o.k. , tires blow out on airplanes too, just like your car. There could have been FOD on the runway that caused it to blow trust me Deltas tires blow out also.
1999/08/16 737 Newark, NJ Cargo door open this has nothing to do w/ maintenance! It has happened before with all airlines and i/m sure it will happen again.
1999/08/22 DC-9 Bloomington, IL Landing gear failure
ntsb web site did not show this, so maybe baker can tell us were he makes this stuff up at.
1999/12/16 737 Atlanta, GA Rudder problems please, you mean to tell me that Airtran was the only operator on the 737-200 that had a rudder problem?
2000/05/07 717 Orlando, FL Smoke in the cockpit not on ntsb web site either, and there has never been smoke in cockpit of a 717 (maybe he's confused with electrical smells).
2000/05/26 717 Atlanta, GA Total electrical failure This was one of the first 717's EVER. Boeing found the prob and corrected.
2000/08/08 DC-9 Greensboro, NC Fire, smoke in the cockpit 10 injured we have discussed this 1 already. A stuck relay on an old plane.
2000/11/29 DC-9 Atlanta, GA Cargo/electrical fire this 1 too, lav juice on wire bundles doesnt mix. we are down to 4 dc-9's so brand new fleet is near.
2001/02/26 Unknown Williamsburg, VA Smoke in cabin Apu oil got into the air conditioning, weve discussed this one also.
2001/07/16 DC-9 Quad City Intl, IL Cargo fire indication only, have to be safe.
2002/03/02 DC-9 Bloomington, IL Pressurization failure could have been anything, but this is not an emergency, an a/c can fly umpressurized below 10k.
2003/03/26 717 New York, NY Multiple electrical failures 9 injured
weve discussed the pcdu already on this 1. Its funny how you can not access any pages with most of bakers wish list for more info. Almost all his claims are minor in nature anyways and happen to the big boys even more, its just that this is taking forever and I cant look up all the other airlines problems.
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Old 09-12-2003, 12:42 PM   #6
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Skewed

jetmech717 does a good job of clearly showing how dbaker distorts minor incidents like electrical smells, instrument indications, wire bundle shorts, etc by calling them "fires." These minor incidents happen just as frequently with all airlines. The subsequent precautionary landings were a result of good safety procedure and had nothing to do with the airworthiness of the aircraft. The few minor injuries listed were a result of sprained and/or twisted ankles, scraped knees, etc inherent with an evacuation. No crash landings occurred where passengers were injured, as dbaker would like you believe.

The REAL distortions and exaggerations occur on the "AirTran Airways - The Truth about Safety" mainpage. First off, dbaker starts out with "AirTran (a.k.a ValuJet)" although this is incorrect. AirTran is not "also known as ValuJet" but rather "formerly known as ValuJet." There actually was an AirTran Airways operating out of Orlando at the same time ValuJet was operating out of Atlanta. After the Miami crash, ValuJet knew things had to change dramatically from top to bottom if they were to survive, so they merged with AirTran and closed their doors in Atlanta. The Orlando base of AirTran became the merged airline's headquarters, an all-knew corporate leadership took the reigns, all of the older 737s and DC9s (a few left) were retired and replaced with brand new aircraft, all maintenance subcontracting was replaced with inhouse technicians (who have subsequently been awarded the coveted FAA Diamond Award for safety, training, and maintence on three seperate occasions since 199, and so on. The current AirTran in no way resembles the forerunner ValuJet. Different aircraft, different corporate culture, different headquarters, different maintenance, different airline. dbaker would like you to think they simply changed their name.

Another distortion and exaggeration occurring on the "AirTran Airways - The Truth about Safety" mainpage is that dbaker would like you to think that all four photos on the right side of the page are seperate incidents, but in fact they are only different angles of the same event: an uncontained engine failure (fanblade seperation) and subsequent fire. This is the other major incident VALUJET had besides the Miami crash. AirTran has had no such incidents and their safety record speaks for itself. What dbaker fails to tell you is that the ValuJet fanblade seperation occurred while sitting on the runway while engines were being throttled up for takeoff. The cabin was successfully evacuated and then the fire engulfed the fuselage later. The engine didn't explode in the air and the aircraft didn't make any firey crash landing as dbaker would like you to believe. Let me restate, the four photos on the right are of the same incident. The caption below the second photo even says "...crashed, missing part of the fuselage." Wrong. This is a photo of the aforementioned incident. I've read one of dbaker's posts where he argued about "all of AirTran's crashes." AirTran has had NO crashes, and ValuJet had one. See dbaker's pattern of misinformation?

On that mainpage dbaker claims AirTran has "careless maintenance and an ancient fleet." Wrong again. As mentioned earlier, the FAA has awarded AirTran the coveted Diamond Award for safety, training, and maintenance three times since 1998. You can read all about that in another article I posted here. AirTran's fleet is one of the youngest in the world and getting younger by the minute, the last handful of the venerable DC-9 workhorses being retired in the coming weeks. There are less than 10 left in a fleet of nearly 100 aircraft. Over 90% of AirTran's fleet is the brand new Boeing 717 which is Boeing's name for McDonnell-Douglas' MD95, itself a derivative of the MD80 and DC9 before it. In addition, AirTran just placed an order with Boeing for 100 of the latest model in the 737 line, the 737-700(800). Careless maintenance? The FAA doesn't hand out three Diamond Awards for careless maintenance. Ancient fleet? One of the youngest fleets in the world isn't exactly ancient. dbaker's problem is that he's refering to the pre 1997-era ValuJet where he would be correct, problem is his facts just don't apply to post 1997-era AirTran. Another problem is that he can't differeniate between the two. We also have Eastern Airlines pilots, planes (had), technicians, directors, etc., so should we be called AirTran/ValuJet/Eastern and assume their safety record too? Ridiculous.

Like jetmech717 said, I could go on and on and on and on but it would take forever. But what we CAN do is show you the pattern of deception dbaker has undertaken in order to spread his slanted propaganda and advance his personal agenda. It's a miracle he hasn't been sued for libel yet. But I suspect, considering AirTran's rising traffic loads, expanding market share, award-winning maintenance record, growing young fleet, broadening coverage area, soaring profits in an economic downturn, etc., that AirTran is less-than-troubled by this website. It's apparently not affecting them in the slightest, and some of us are probably handling the arguments here to their satisfaction
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Old 09-25-2003, 04:01 PM   #7
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A number of the burning aircraft pictures aren't identified by tail number, just by model, so its difficult to tell if they are seprate incidents, but the page never claims that they are (the two that occur at ATL may be the same, I'm not sure).

The First three pictures are of the same aircraft, as is the one in the hanger. Here is a fact abot the second picture, it states that that was aircraft N904VJ, when in fact N904VJ was the aircraft tha crashed in the everglades. If you look at the first three pictures you would have to be ignorant not to see they are the same one - there weren't three different aircraft that all burned in the exact same place on the fuselage.

Here is a challange for DBaker - show me the NTSB reports (or at least the link to one, or any other proof) that those were three seperate incidents. You won't be able to becasue they are the same incident.
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Old 09-26-2003, 08:46 AM   #8
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Once again this is the second time jetmech717 has posted the answer to your so called accident list. I bet that it won't be answered this time either. It really looks like to me that this topic on AirTran is changing. Propaganda out truth in.
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