AirTran failed to meet evacuation requirements for 717

[dbaker]

According to this NTSB document regarding a 717 evacuation after an emergency landing:

The Safety Board, Survival Factors Group Chairman reported that AirTran had two tail cone door trainers. One was configured for the Douglas DC-9, and the other was configured for the Boeing 717. However, although the door trainers were representative of the airplanes used, there was only one tail cone trainer, and it did not match the specific configuration of either airplane. Following is a list of discrepancies found with the tail cone trainer:

[list of 4 discrepancies removed]

After it was found that the existing tailcone trainer used by AirTran did not accurately reflect either the DC-9, or Boeing 717 airplanes, AirTran set up an interim training program for their flight attendants, until a new door trainer could be obtained. This program was approved by the FAA Principal Operations Inspector (POI), and did not include hands on training for the flight attendants. Additionally, the pilots were not included in the training program.

The Vice President of Flight Operations at AirTran, and the FAA POI, both reported that the training was within FAA guidelines, and did not require hands on training, or need to include the pilots.

The Safety Board Survival Factors Group Chairman then requested a "legal" interpretation of 14 CFR 121.417. The FAA reply stated in part:

"...Each crewmember (flight attendant and pilot) must operate each type of emergency equipment in the normal and emergency modes including the actions and forces necessary in the deployment of the evacuation slides. Hands-on training of the B-717 tailcone door and emergency evacuation slides for all crewmembers must be conducted during the recurrent training cycle...."

This refers to the emergency landing where 22 people were minorly injured and 1 seriously injured in the poorly executed evacuation. Before the landing, this took place in the cockpit:

At 2241:10, the captain stated, "you smell something burning? I think we have a fire." The co-pilot replied, "I smell something weird...no way to tell if landing gear down. A few seconds later the co-pilot stated, "we lost everything, that's for sure. Your speed's pretty damn high.", to which the captain replied, "that's all right...."

At 2241:34, the captain stated, "tell him we're declaring an emergency. We have an electrical problem." The co-pilot told the control tower that they had an electrical emergency. The captain further stated, "tell him to send the equipment", and the co-pilot transmitted to the control tower,"...we might have a possible fire...we're landing on runway four."

So, at the airline that claims that safety is the first priority, they're cutting corners and don't actually have complete safety training. I guess the planes are just so safe that they don't have to worry about that?

[jetmech717]

Hey Baker nice to see your still here It was only a matter of time before you chimed in again. I cant seem to get that ntsb document to come up. I would like to see the dates on that. I recall a problem with the "tailcone trainer" at one time but it was when we first got the 717's. only because there are multiple ways to jettison the tail and deploy the tail slide. This was an issue because of the new plane and not knowing the exact specs at the time. The Airline worked out the differences w/ the FAA and took care of it. So I need to know if this is an old document that your bringing up about the "tailcone trainer" which by the way has nothing to do with the emergency landing in LGA last year. The serious injury was when a lady ran off the front of the wing instead of the back. The emergency was not required but the crew was being saftey oriented as they are trained here at AirTran Airways. Thank you as always
*You like to try to take things out of context so that people who dont know the system will believe you....not this time sir

[haze]

Originally Posted by jetmech717

I recall a problem with the "tailcone trainer" at one
time but it was when we first got the 717's...The Airline worked out the
differences w/ the FAA and took care of it. So I need to know if this is an
old document that your bringing up about the "tailcone trainer" which by
the way has nothing to do with the emergency landing in LGA last year...*You
like to try to take things out of context so that people who dont know the
system will believe you....not this time sir

Eggzackly, jetmech 717. I also noticed that dbaker deliberately failed to
mention the dates. Naturally that's due to the fact that he wants readers to
believe that AirTran has a problem with their evacuation procedures, which
they do not, and that they just had an emergency landing, which they did
not.

We have to remember that this is all coming from a guy who lists on his
AirTran warning page several different photos of the same VALUJET (not
AirTran) incident implying that they are seperate incidents. Calls a VALUJET
(not AirTran) fanblade seperation on the runway a "crash." The very dbaker
who on that same warning page says AirTran's fleet is made up of old Turkish
DC-9s when in fact AirTran has the youngest 717/737 fleet on Earth, without
a single DC-9. Why would anyone believe this propagandist since he's already
demonstrated he has ZERO credibility? They wouldn't

[dbaker]

Originally Posted by haze

Eggzackly, jetmech 717. I also noticed that dbaker deliberately failed to mention the dates

I linked to the NTSB document in my first post which contains the dates: http://www.ntsb.gov/ntsb/brief2.asp?...03FA067&akey=1. Since you guys don't seem comfortable with hyperlinks, I'll confirm that the incident took place on March 26, 2003 at 22:39 EST and the aircraft in question was N957AT.

Originally Posted by haze

The very dbaker who on that same warning page says AirTran's fleet is made up of old Turkish DC-9s when in fact AirTran has the youngest 717/737 fleet on Earth, without a single DC-9. Why would anyone believe this propagandist since he's already demonstrated he has ZERO credibility

Want to talk about ZERO credibility? The ITYT AirTran page does not make this claim. It's not a recent change, either, which can be proved with google's cache.

Originally Posted by jetmech717

So I need to know if this is an old document that your bringing up about the "tailcone trainer" which by the way has nothing to do with the emergency landing in LGA last year.

ZERO credibility in this claim since it's factually incorrect. The truth:

Originally Posted by NTSB

On March 26, 2003, about 2239 eastern standard time, a Boeing 717-200, N957AT, operated by AirTran Airways as flight 356, received minor damage when the left side power control distribution power unit (PCDU) failed while on approach to land at LaGuardia Airport (LGA), Flushing, New York.

Originally Posted by jetmech717

The serious injury was when a lady ran off the front of the wing instead of the back.

Wow, sounds dangerous! Maybe the FAA should make some rules that airlines have to train their flight attendants and pilots about evacuations so that nobody gets hurt?

Oh, wait, nevermind, they already do; AirTran just doesn't comply.

And now that lady is seriously injured. Got it.

Originally Posted by jetmech717

The emergency was not required but the crew was being saftey oriented as they are trained here at AirTran Airways.

Is that some kind of mean joke about AirTran? I'll let the readers decide if they think this was an emergency that required an evacuation:

Originally Posted by NTSB

At 2242:50, the captain stated, "tell him we need the fire trucks out here. I think we may have a fi, some kind of fire." At 2242:52, the co-pilot transmitted to the control tower, "...tower, Citrus three fifty six, uh, please run the fire trucks out here. We are smelling electrical smoke." The local controller asked the pilots to pull all the way onto taxiway BRAVO, and acknowledged their request for fire trucks.

At 2243:04, the captain stated, "get, get the door, get the door unlocked." The local controller asked the pilots to hold short of taxiway FOXTROT, and this was acknowledged. The local controller then instructed the pilot to contact ground control, and the co-pilot replied, "sir, I can't..." The captain then transmitted, "We, we don't have time for that sir. I may have to evacuate. You're gonna have to just get some people out here. The local controller replied, "Okay, you can stop right there if you need to and do what you have to do."

At 2243:37, the captain stated, "we got some kind of fire guys. Get ready to get out of here. A flight attendant stated, "we have no lights", and the captain said, "just, just um all right just hold still, all right, just hold still, hold still."

At 2243:43, an announcement was made on the public address system which stated, "Ladies and gentlemen, we need everybody in their seats please...."

At 2243:44, the captain asked, "do you have any emergency lights?", and the co-pilot replied, "nothing." At 2243:47, the captain stated, "alright, evacuate the airplane. Tell 'em we've gotta evacuate the airplane." At 2243:48, the CAM reported a flight attendant stating, "evacuate, evacuate."

[jetmech717]

Baker:

I linked to the NTSB document in my first post which contains the dates:

First of all for the second thread now your links dont work!

Second of all we all know about the emergency landing in LGA with AirTran, REMEMBER we discussed it for months here!!!!! Tell me about the training issue not the evacuation!!!!!!
jetmech717 wrote:

The emergency was not required but the crew was being safety oriented as they are trained here at AirTran Airways.

Baker:

Is that some kind of mean joke about AirTran? I'll let the readers decide if they think this was an emergency that required an evacuation:

As I said before you can clearly see that the pilot waited till the last possible second to diclare the evacuation....He was still trying to see if there was accually a fire!! (which we know there was not, and that it was just a PCDU internally malfunctioning). Just because the plane loses lights does not mean that you have to evacuate Baker.

Baker:

Wow, sounds dangerous! Maybe the FAA should make some rules that airlines have to train their flight attendants and pilots about evacuations so that nobody gets hurt?

Regaurdless of what you think, our crews are well trained. The reason the lady got hurt was in the confusion of the evacuation....she got hurt during the evacuation you retard Baker. This is why Captains have to make the deccision, because people get scared and someone always twist an ankle or gets scratched up.

Has it been so long that you forgot about your own topics Baker. Now if you have an update than I would be glad to here it but you are acting all suprised here. You have told us nothing that we didnt already know or discuss already....NOTHING!!!!!!
You also are bringing up old problems with training with the FAA that have already been taken care of I'm trying to remember... maybe 2 or 3 years ago with the tail slide issue.
Oh wait I know what your doing.......(Baker thoughts)"Hmmmm the web site is getting pretty slow around here and I've got to look good when the numbers come in about travel sites...Let me go stir up old faithful over at the AirTran page. They always slam the door on me when I make stuff up but they'll talk for days about it....Man I'm glad those guys signed up, they really saved this place"

[RyJones]

Originally Posted by jetmech717

Baker:

First of all for the second thread now your links dont work!

they work here at work and on my home computer. Perhaps airtran's web proxy blocks you from reading ntsb reports? It would be easy enough to do.

[haze]

Originally Posted by dbaker

Want to talk about ZERO credibility? The ITYT AirTran page does not make this claim

Yes, I'd love to talk about how you have ZERO credibility dbaker. This from your link to that page:

AirTran is a low-cost, no-frills airline that has a corporate culture of being unsafe due to careless maintenance and an ancient fleet.

Good to see that you finally removed that Turkish nonsense after many of us here demanded it for so long. I hadn't even noticed yet since I don't make it a habit to read complete rubbish and blatant propaganda more than once or twice

Nice try though, removing the Turkish hand-me-downs reference while leaving in the "ancient fleet" lies even though you're fully aware that they have one of the youngest fleets on Earth. That's about par for your course though, just the way we've already figured out you operate, and a gleaming example of why you still, dbaker, have absolutely ZERO credibility

[dbaker]

Originally Posted by haze

Nice try though, removing the Turkish hand-me-downs reference while leaving in the "ancient fleet" lies even though you're fully aware that they have one of the youngest fleets on Earth. That's about par for your course though, just the way we've already figured out you operate, and a gleaming example of why you still, dbaker, have absolutely ZERO credibility

When Airtran upgraded their fleet, the explanation of the DC-9 fleet with parts from Turkish Airlines was removed to keep the site accurate and up to date. The "ancient fleet" description was an oversight and has since been removed based on your feedback. I'd be happy to correct any other factual errors that you can point out and can prove with a valid source. In the past, when I've offered this, I've been met with emotionally-charged opinion with no factual backing.

Keep in mind that AirTran's own web site has yet to fully remove references to the DC-9 in their fleet, so it's hard to expect a non-official web site to be more up to date than the company's official one that they maintain.

[RyJones]

Originally Posted by dbaker

Keep in mind that AirTran's own web site has yet to fully remove references to the DC-9 in their fleet, so it's hard to expect a non-official web site to be more up to date than the company's official one that they maintain.

Even NPA-ATL.org has it wrong:

AirTran Airways currently operates a fleet, which includes DC-9-32s, B-737-200s, and the newest aircraft serving the aircraft industry, the DC-9-717!

[dbaker]

Originally Posted by jetmech717

Regaurdless of what you think, our crews are well trained.

It doesn't really matter what I think, the NTSB sure disagrees with you:

Originally Posted by NTSB

. . . did not include hands on training for the flight attendants . . . the pilots were not included in the training program. . .

Accordingly, I don't think it really matters what you think, either.