SEC filing indicates Boeing to ditch ugly duckling (717)

[haze]

Originally Posted by dbaker

The 737-900 is not capable of crossing the Atlantic to Europe from New York, much less from Atlanta.

That's just a typo on my part, sorry. If you'll notice on all of my previous posts I always include the entire -700 or -800 instead of the shorter "736" or "738". I simply meant to type "737" and hit the "9" instead of the "7".

By the way, the 737-700 has a range of @ 3,300+/- miles give or take a few. From Boston (one of AirTran's rapidly expanding "mini-hubs") the 737-700 could reach most of Western Europe including Great Britain, Spain, France, and Germany. The Boeing website has a Macromedia Flash page with each "next gen" model's global coverage mapped out in convenient colored circles

[haze]

Originally Posted by dbaker

Additionally, I think you're underestimating the complexity of offering international routes in terms of airline partnership for connections overseas as well as the fact that the majors have extreme difficulty obtaining gates and landing rights at the busy European airports and largely sustain themselves on the $3,000-5,000 (one-way) business & first class fares to european destinations, which is quite a departure from AirTran's model.

I'm not underestimating anything. AirTran said they're looking to Europe, not me. That's not some sort of a "wish-list" of mine, those are AirTran's statements published in an article I read a few months ago. I was simply pondering their aircraft choices for those routes, since we were on the subject of the switch from the 717 to the 737.

I'm fully aware of the complexities of entering the European market, specifically the financial risks involved when exposing an airline to trans-Atlantic factors. AirTran has never had to face those factors, which is part of why they're so successful. But no low-cost airline has ever climbed that mountain before, AirTran just may be the first and end up changing the way the game is played.

International partnerships? AirTran hooking up with EasyJet sounds like a pretty intriguing proposition to me

[mduell]

Originally Posted by haze

By the way, the 737-700 has a range of @ 3,300+/- miles give or take a few. From Boston (one of AirTran's rapidly expanding "mini-hubs") the 737-700 could reach most of Western Europe including Great Britain, Spain, France, and Germany.

Is the 737-700 ETOPS certified?

With AirTrans history of in-flight fires, I'm not sure I'd want to hop the pond on them...

[jetmech717]

welcome to the convo mr Duell. I know that we will not have an ETOPS program for our 737's at this time, and I cant really tell you if it is certified for ETOPS (check Boeings site). With that being said.......
Mduell:

With AirTrans history of in-flight fires, I'm not sure I'd want to hop the pond on them...

For the record Mr. Duell, AirTran has NEVER had a 717 inflight or on the ground fire, and you can take that to the bank...I dare you to tell me other-wise. So since that is all that we fly and they are brand new and most are still under warrenty.....I think its safe to say that AirTran's past HISTORY is exactly that...HISTORY. Please move on. I hope you ride a bike and are a better student than you are a fact finder.....you guys are killing me...

History of in-flight fires.

Yeah no other airline has ever had smoke in the cabin. We have already had this discussion so go ahead and read up on everything and then come back and talk to me.

[mduell]

Originally Posted by jetmech717

For the record Mr. Duell, AirTran has NEVER had a 717 inflight or on the ground fire, and you can take that to the bank...I dare you to tell me other-wise. So since that is all that we fly and they are brand new and most are still under warrenty.....I think its safe to say that AirTran's past HISTORY is exactly that...HISTORY. Please move on. I hope you ride a bike and are a better student than you are a fact finder.....you guys are killing me...

Yeah no other airline has ever had smoke in the cabin. We have already had this discussion so go ahead and read up on everything and then come back and talk to me.

Perhaps I should have said "smoke in the cabin" instead of "fire".

But as the saying goes, where theres smoke theres fire. Its not like the smoke is magically showing up from some non-fire source.

From reading the NTSB reports AirTran seems to have them unusally often, given the small size of their fleet.
Would the NTSB reports even be filed if it wasnt an in-flight fire? If I recall correctly, the reasons for filing an NTSB report are serious injuries, substantial damage, in-flight fire, sick crewmember, or flight control system malfunction/failure.

[jetmech717]

MDuell, your telling me that if your t.v. tube goes out, or your monitor, or your desktop computer fries the board and it sends that electrical burning smell throughout you house that you had a fire in your house. I didnt think so. the few occurances on the 717 were when the LRU fried itself internally, now you let that smell get in the air and see how quick it gets pumped throughout the plane. So I guess in this case were there's smoke there's??????? not fire.

[BovineOne]

Originally Posted by jetmech717

your (sic) telling me that if your t.v. tube goes out, or your monitor, or your desktop computer fries the board and it sends that electrical burning smell throughout you house that you had a fire in your house.

The fact that anything is malfunctioning on an aircraft that has been entrusted with the lives and safety of hundreds of passengers per flight is frightful.

[jetmech717]

You need to face reality Bovine, and realize that airplanes are man made machines, and have become more and more like giant computers. For you to think that they never malfuntion is ignorrent. Please wake-up and face the real world. Why do you think every airline has mechanics?

[haze]

This is the latest on Boeing's website:

Boeing Committed To 717 Program And 100-Seat Market
Brief key facts about the airplane, market, economics and future

Boeing has affirmed its commitment to the 717 program and the 100-passenger market by announcing it will continue production of the airplane at its Long Beach, Calif., final assembly facility. This reaffirmation of the 717 follows a detailed evaluation of the program's economics and the 100-seat airliner market...The efficient 717 is meeting or exceeding all expectations in revenue service. It is the best 100-passenger airplane for short-haul, high frequency routes.

Boeing believes in the 717, despite less-than-expected order activity for all 100-seat airplanes in the past several years. This market remains fertile, but it has developed slower than forecasted. Boeing plans to stay the course because it recognizes that the 717 is the right product to fulfill airline needs.

Market

There is a requirement for about 3,000 airplanes with 90 to 110 seats over the next 20 years. Boeing believes it can capture a good share of this sizeable market. Potential customers include at least three types: mainline carriers replacing aging DC-9s, F28s and 737-200s; regional airlines flying turboprops or small regional jets but are ready to move up; and low-cost airlines that benefit from the 717's low operating costs and great reliability.

Economics

The 717 earns money for airline customers because costs are low. It has significantly lower cash operating costs than the A318, more than 13 percent less on a typical 300-nautical mile flight. The 717 is also highly competitive with the Embraer 195 and Fairchild Dornier 928, both of which are years ahead away from entry into service.

Future

Boeing announced that it wanted to take a fresh look at the 717's market because of the current difficult airline environment. The company has come away convinced that the 100-seat market will recover and flourish. The 717 is a great product for that market, and it is here to stay.

I read the words "convinced", "committed", "reaffirmed", "stay the course", and "it is here to stay" in that press release. I wouldn't be so quick to bury the 717 just yet. Regardless, it will serve as a wonderfully economical regional "feeder" jet for AirTran's larger and longer range 737-7s and 737-8s, and possibly even the 7E7 several years down the road. Why purchase the CRJ which hauls 50% fewer passengers or the A318 which has 15% higher operating costs than the 717. Memphis to Atlanta on a brand new 717, Atlanta to L.A. on a brand new 737-7, NYC to London on a brand new 7E7. Sounds like a pretty efficient plan, I wonder if AirTran will bite at Boeing's bait on the 7E7...

By the way, I've scanned through the SEC filing a couple of times and can't find the part about Boeing ditching the 717. Could someone please point out that exact section for me, I'm lost there

[haze]

Originally Posted by haze

By the way, I've scanned through the SEC filing a couple of times and can't find the part about Boeing ditching the 717. Could someone please point out that exact section for me, I'm lost there

I did find this in the Seattle PI though:

In a recent filing, Boeing reported what it said was a $250 million "forward loss" on the 717 since it had not reached the 200 orders initially projected for the program. Boeing has won 153 orders for the plane.

If Boeing decided to go ahead with the 717-300, it would do so at a time when its commercial business is focused on developing an all-new super-efficient jetliner dubbed the 7E7. This plane would replace the 767 in the middle of the market.

For now, however, unlike every other Boeing jetliner in production, the 717 has no family members.

It remains to be seen whether that changes, or whether the 717 even survives.

Phillips is not certain of the former, but convinced of the latter.

"This part of the market (for 100-passenger jets), has been pretty tough," he said. "But you talk with customers and they are very pleased with the 717. . . . I'm optimistic that when the upturn comes this plane will be getting recognized.

So Phillips, the head of Boeing's 717 team, is covinced that the 717 will survive. Even after the SEC Filing...