Here we go!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[jetmech717]

Watch us grow!!!!!!!!!

Dow Jones Business News
Boeing Likely to Obtain 100-Plane Order From AirTran
Monday June 30, 5:22 pm ET
By J. Lynn Lunsford and Nicole Harris, Staff Reporters of The Wall Street Journal.

DALLAS -- Boeing Co. (NYSE:BA - News) has emerged as the likely winner in a competition to snag a 100-airplane order from AirTran Airways .
According to people familiar with the deal, Boeing edged out rival Airbus to supply the rapidly growing low-cost carrier with 100 of its single-aisle Boeing 737s that the airline plans to use for longer-haul routes. The deal is worth about $6 billion at list prices. It includes 50 firm orders for 737-700s and 737-800s, as well as options for another 50 more.

[BovineOne]

Purchasing new aircraft to replace the ones that crash and burn is probably an ongoing effort.

[jetmech717]

Hey bovineone, I've seen your picture on the site...can you even fly by yourself? So AirTran has all these planes falling out of the sky, well I would like to see were you get your info since this site says it shows the cold hard facts, and if ordering new planes means your company is doing bad then...........

JetBlue Airways Orders 100 EMBRAER 190 Jet Aircraft, with Options for an Additional 100; JetBlue is Launch Customer for the New Aircraft
June 10, 2003 08:33:00 AM ET



NEW YORK--(BUSINESS WIRE)--June 10, 2003--JetBlue Airways Corporation JBLU announced today that it has placed an order for 100 new EMBRAER 190 jet aircraft, with options for an additional 100 new aircraft.

Tell your mom and dad that we understand there attachment to the reliable dc-9 but its getting old and needs to be replaced, Also tell them we will still escort you when you fly alone through Atlanta. (and we may give you some flight wings)

[lharter1]

Being an infrequent flyer I was troubled by all the comments about airtran. Since I have booked air fair with airtran for Aug 1, I'm curious about all that is being said about the airline. Since having signed up to this chat I see some of the pilots have made some comments that the fleet will be rid of the D-C9 by the end of this july, 2003??? This does relieve me of some tension ,if true, about flying, but still I am apprehensive about being 18,000 + feet in the air. Having driven commercial vehicles for a living for a subsidary for one of the largest companies in the US. (Wal-mart) I know about corp. cut backs on saftey if they can get away with it. many of the vehicles I drove with similarities to the planes is that we had numerous cabin fires and severe breakdowns(wrecks thats it). Corporations are cheap in this aspect. The only difference between a tractortrailer careening off the road and a jet is the number of fatalities. So trying not to be long winded, can any one verify that this is true about the airtran fleet being completely changed over by the end of july.

[jetmech717]

To whom it may concern,
I wish you would read all the treads in this "AirTran bashing" forum. You would see that myself ( an AirTran aircraft technician) and a few other employees have taken everything these un-knowledgable people have said and showed them the facts and truth. We WILL NOT be rid of all the DC-9's by the end of July, however we are currently operating only 4 and have 70 B717's, so your chances of flying on a brand new plane are pretty good. You should also know that if you should have to fly on a DC-9 you can rest assured that it too gets all of the tender loving care that all the 717's get. Even though we are retiring our Dc-9s It does not mean that they are unsafe to fly. Many airlines still use the reliable plane. Its just getting too exspensive to operate (fuel cost) and maintain (maintenance cost) a 30+ year old plane. It has went above and beyond what the airline asked of it. Second of all you would have these tensions of flying at 35,000ft high (not 18k) whether it was AirTran or some other airline since you dont fly alot, but dont worry I see it everyday and we'll take good care of you. Third of all you cannot compare an airplane to a tractor trailer. A truck can pull over on the side of the road if it breaks down, an airplane cannot. This is what we as mechanics think about everytime we work on an airplane. For you to even think that AirTran goes around to the maintenance portion of the company looking for ways to cut safety to save money is absurd. It is not cost effective for an airline to operate unsafe and I can promise you that AirTran takes pride in the maintenance program it has. Why would an up and coming airline want to risk such a promising future by jeprodizing safety. We have a very good relationship with the FAA and invite them to meetings every morning. Just so you know it takes multiple, multiple things to go wrong on an aircraft to bring it down, there are backup systems for backup systems. Especially on the 717, its newer and more high tech than any plane out there, not to mention its an exciting and fun plane to work on. As for your plane ride I hope you can enjoy it in comfort now knowing that your in a safe airplane with a safe airline. Thanks for the question, feel free to ask some more.

[lharter1]

Thanks for the reply, better to here it from a tech than some counter person who has no idea about the technical end of things.
Signed Happier!

[dbaker]

Perhaps you see this as incredibly good news, but I'm a firm believer in history repeating itself. It's true in governments, world powers, economies, and much more.

Do you recall what happened the last time ValuJet started growing rapidly? If not, ask the FAA when they started their investigation of VJ's growth and shortcuts a few months before VJ592.

I wish you the best of luck and hope that you are safe, but please don't be so cocky without considering the number of children withour parents because of your airline.

[jetmech717]

Dont confuse confidence with cockiness, and in no way is AirTran growing at the rate that ValuJet did. AirTran has put in its dues and has thought out every move in the companies growth and even put some moves on hold until future plans are ready (so you go ask the FAA about AirTran's growth and safety, and they'll agree were doing it right). We have discussed already the reasons for the accident yet you always imply that it was mechanical. Also its sad to say but many other airlines have orphaned many more children than (ValuJet, NOT AIRTRAN) did with far less of a reason, and dbaker when are you going to correct your "warning" page like we discussed since its incorrect........STILL

[dbaker]

You sound completely ridiculous when you correct me and try to differentiate between ValuJet and AirTran.

Imagine if I drove my car into a schoolbus full of children and killed a bunch of them. Then, I changed my name. From then on, when people talked about what happened or asked me about the accident, I said that it was somebody else that crashed into the schoolbus and to stop confusing me with him.

Do you see how stupid that would sound?

[jetmech717]

Now you sound ridiculous. If you wreck a car then "YOU did it" and nobody else whether you changed your name or not, If an airline bought another airline and merged them years ago and changed management and almost all the people and all the planes then its a totally new airline. Look I dont see you putting all of the TWA accident stats in with the American Airline stats, and I dont see you calling American Airlines unsafe for the md-80 that slid off the runway for the pilot trying to land in bad weather. You don't hold American accountable for all the accidents that TWA has ever had and they took over all the planes and most the people. You dont do it and I dont expect you to because they are different. Now do you see how stupid you sound?

[dbaker]

You are completely right. If it was a new airline with new management and new planes, then it'd be no comparison.

But we're talking about AirTran, right?

Perhaps in the employee team spirit meetings, they mind wash you into thinking that they're "all new" or some nonsense.

Have you read ValuJet and AirTran SEC filings? I have, but it doesn't sound like you really get the big picture.

As far as AA/TWA, I suggest you read up a bit more about the structure of that deal in comparison to AirTran/ValuJet. You won't see things like this in their filings:

D. Joseph Corr, the current President and Chief Executive Officer of ValuJet, will continue serving as President and Chief Executive Officer of ValuJet after the Merger. Other executive officers of ValuJet will be selected by the President and Chief Executive Officer prior to the Effective Date, subject to the approval of the Board of Directors.

[ithisk]

It's a proven fact (read any good management books lately?) that corporate culture is defined early in a company's lifetime and doesn't usually change. Spending habits, behavior, feelings about skirting the law, etc.

It's hard to imagine that any slow transit in management, staff, aircraft, or even a name change would result in a different corporate culture.

That said, I don't think jetmech really understand the insignificance of the name change in this particular case and the lack of change to the company otherwise.

[jetmech717]

wrong again gentlemen!
Well I guess they brainwash us pretty good here at AirTran Airways because for the past four years I could have sworn that Joe Leonard was our CEO and Bob Fornaro was our president and chief operating officer along with a team of others (most who were not around during ValuJet and AirTran merger)

Leadership Team

Joe Leonard
Chairman of the Board and Chief Executive Officer
Robert Fornaro
President and Chief Operating Officer
Stan Gadek
Senior Vice President, Finance and CFO
Jack Smith
Senior Vice President, Customer Service
Stephen Kolski
Senior Vice President, Operations
Richard Magurno
Senior Vice President, General Counsel and Secretary
Loral Blinde
Vice President, Human Resources
Guy Borowski
Vice President, Maintenance and Engineering
Klaus Goersch
Vice President, Flight Operations
Kevin P. Healy
Vice President, Planning and Sales
Susan Manfredi
Vice President, Inflight Service
Rocky Wiggins
Vice President, Chief Information Officer
Jean-Pierre Dagon
Director of Safety
Tad Hutcheson
Director of Marketing

Like I have said before, people on the outside looking in know nothing. Now baker when you show the facts please make sure that they are up to date. You keep bringing up things that happened 6-7 years ago and I keep telling you its a different airline with different people and different planes, but you insist on making yourself look stupid by scrapping any little bit of info you can get (even if its about a guy who hasn't been CEO of the airline for 4 years). So please get over it and move on baker and by the way, when are you going to fix your warning page and remove all the incorrect info? and thisk..as a matter of fact I read a good management book the other day....it was called "learn how to make a regional airline into a major and still make money, even while big names aren't". talk soon I'm sure

[dbaker]

Like most jobs, you don't have them forever. You seem to be missing the point that the name change had no impact on the management. Naturally, people move on in their careers to bigger and better things. I never expected (nor implied) that the CEO when ValuJet renamed to AirTran would hold that title for the rest of his life.

The fact that he was not terminated is a huge indication that the company is the same.

Like I have said before, people on the outside looking in know nothing.

Like the investors that own AirTran? Heh.

The fact that you find things from "6 or 7 years ago" to be irrelevant further proves my point that history will repeat itself if you have no respect for what happened in the past.

[jetmech717]

Baker said:

You are completely right. If it was a new airline with new management and new planes, then it'd be no comparison.

So at what point do you say "hey this is a new airline with new management, new planes and a new attitude"
Trust me if the CEO of ValuJet was doing a good job they would have paid him to stay, but obviously he didn't and he was replaced with Leonard, and I can assure you that he is getting paid to stay!

The fact that I am trying to get you to forget the past is not because we didnt learn from it because we did, but you know what? at some point you have to move on!! and we are trying to do that and people like you wont let it go. What happened, happened and there is nothing you or I or anybody else can do to change it. All I can do is tell you that things are run differently now and thats that. Oh by the way...I've listened in on some of the investor meetings with the top management, and they get way more info about the company than we ever get at the maintenance level. Also baker when are you going to change you big warning/attention page with all the pics of the same plane titled as different ones? You also stated that a 717 had a fire and thats never happened.....get it right, if you need the correct info i'll help you.

[dbaker]

Originally Posted by jetmech717

You also stated that a 717 had a fire and thats never happened.....get it right, if you need the correct info i'll help you.

I won't trust your lies to correct my accurate information.

AIR SAFETY ONLINE: Accidents: Special Reports: AirTran 956 - Fire in the Sky

And there were other incidents involving AirTran planes and bad wiring throughout the year 2000. On May 7, an AirTran Boeing 717 experienced smoke in the cockpit, attributed to a bad switch on a control panel. Later that month another AirTran 717 experienced a total electrical failure in mid-flight, making an uneventful emergency landing.

It's not like this is the only recent fire, either. You cat like AirTran has been incident free since the crash of VJ592.

What about the cargo fire 24 months ago? Remember why VJ592 crashed?

What about crew behavior in the AirTran fire in the cockpit incident in 2000:

The Safety Board also learned during its investigation of this accident that neither flight attendant on board flight 913 attempted to locate the source of the smoke in the cabin or to use any of the firefighting equipment available to them. It was also learned that AirTran's flight attendant training program does not include any drill involving hidden fires but does include a drill that uses a visible, open flame. Based on this accident (and others involving in-flight fires), the Safety Board issued five safety recommendations to the FAA on January 4, 2002, regarding improved crewmember training for fighting in-flight fires.

The Safety Board's investigation also revealed that after donning his oxygen mask, the first officer removed it to address the passengers on the public address system, exposing himself to the smoke and the potential for incapacitation. He reported in a postaccident interview that he continued to feel the effects of the smoke after he replaced his mask. The first officer was treated for smoke inhalation after evacuating the airplane.

Very unimpressive. And these were just a few of the incidents in the past two to three years! What happened to the new management and new planes fixing everything?

Where were you and your new planes and new management less than a year ago on November 11, 2002?

ON 11/01/02, AIRTRAN FLIGHT 985 A DC-9-32, MADE AN EMERGENCY LANDING ON RUNWAY 32, AT PITTSBURGH INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT (PIT), SHORTLY AFTER DEPARTURE DUE TO SMOKE IN CABIN AS REPORTED BY FLIGHT ATTENDANT. THE AIRPLANE LANDED WITHOUT INCIDENT AND RETURNED TO THE GATE. FURTHER INVESTIGATION REVEALED THAT RIGHT ACM REF AMM 21-51, WAS REMOVED AND REPLACED DUE TO A STICKING VALVE. THE AIRPLANE WAS RETURNED TO SERVICE WITHOUT FURTHER PROBLEMS, AS PER NICK DRIVAS, QUALITY CONTROL FOR AIRTRAN MAINTENANCE. SUBMISSION OF THIS REPORT CLOSES THIS INCIDENT.

Look, you can just say "You're wrong because I know so much more on the inside" all day long. However, when the day is really done, you guys are cheating death for another day and behaving the same as you always have.

[jetmech717]

baker said

I won't trust your lies to correct my accurate information.

Airsafetyonline.com:

Commitment to safety?
ValuJet Airlines merged with a smaller carrier, AirTran Airlines, in 1997 and assumed the name AirTran Airways. Since the ValuJet crash, increased FAA and media scrutiny, and a complete corporate reorganization, has AirTran changed its ways? They have, according to Michael Boyd of the Boyd Group, a Colorado-based commercial airline consulting firm. “This is a different airline,” Boyd said. “From all I hear and I’ve seen, it’s not ValuJet with a different name.”

Now your really digging baker, how in the hell do you call it accurate info when it comes from a .com that was made by someone trying to push his opinion just like you are, where the hell is he getting his info from because it sure isnt the ntsb. You always like to find little sites that have what someone thinks they know. Go...Go now and find an faa or ntsb report that says there was a "fire" on a 717 because it never happened, quit listening to what someone thinks they know. We already discussed the NewYork landing and there was no fire there just a strong electrical smell from the pcdu cooling holes being plugged from the factory... remember?

Baker:

What about crew behavior in the AirTran fire in the cockpit incident in 2000:

How are you going to discredit the pilots who landed that plane safe under some pretty rough conditions? Its tough to keep your head under pressure and they did, so sorry the F.O. (who probably didnt have alot of hands on experience with a smoke filled cockpit) tried to calm the passengers down with an announcement. Also that incident happened when a relay stuck and welded itself closed, now we've been down this road before were you show me a problem that an AirTran plane had and I show you 10 other airlines have had the same. Just so you know the 717 smoke mask have microphones built in so they can talk to the passengers without taking them off. (maybe you should have thought of that first$$)

Baker Quoted:

It was also learned that AirTran's flight attendant training program does not include any drill involving hidden fires but does include a drill that uses a visible, open flame.

Its good to know that our flight attendents get training on putting out fires they can see, but need alittle help on putting out fires that they cant even find. maybe you can teach them baker

Baker quoted:

ON 11/01/02, AIRTRAN FLIGHT 985 A DC-9-32, MADE AN EMERGENCY LANDING ON RUNWAY 32, AT PITTSBURGH INTERNATIONAL AIRPORT (PIT), SHORTLY AFTER DEPARTURE DUE TO SMOKE IN CABIN AS REPORTED BY FLIGHT ATTENDANT. THE AIRPLANE LANDED WITHOUT INCIDENT AND RETURNED TO THE GATE. FURTHER INVESTIGATION REVEALED THAT RIGHT ACM REF AMM 21-51

Yet again another example that you know absolutely nothing about aircraft maintenence.....Do you even know what an ACM is? Its the dam blower that pumps the engine air into the cabin for airconditioning...now what in the hell do you think is going to happen if it lockes up..thats right it gets hot and pumps the fumes into the cabin. That was on a dc-9. Its just like if your blower for your heater in your car burns up. Once again aviation is not perfected, parts do go bad. If they didnt then I would be out of a job. It has happened to airliners before. By the way the 717 doesnt use oil to cool the bearings in the acm's they use air cooled bearings!

So mister insider bring on some more cold hard facts and while your at it look at the other airliners to....trust me its there. By the way baker when are you going to fix your little warning about airtran with the pics of the same plane labeled as different incidents? Also maybe you should stick to trying to learn to fly and not at thinking you know how maintenance is done.

[ithisk]

jetmech717, a personal suggestion from a long-time observer of these heated debates. I can tell that you're commited and you believe in AirTran and that's good -- but I suggest you lay off and stop posting before you dig yourself any deeper here since your contribution really isn't helping the case.

You'll be best off quitting before you get any further behind.

Take it easy.

[jetmech717]

thanks for the info thisk, but you can just keep on observing. You will never get me to sit there and just let someone talk as much smack about my airlines name (the one that i enjoy working at and pays my bills). Escpecially when its people who know nothing about the business or industery (especially the maintenance part), and just get most of there info from gossip. Look I dont go to bakers job and smack the basket of fries out of his hand and tell people not to eat there, and I would appreciate the same. As far as "digging myself deeper" ...thanks but i got alot of people standing by with a ladder it I get to far gone. :P

[dbaker]

Originally Posted by jetmech717

Yet again another example that you know absolutely nothing about aircraft maintenence.....Do you even know what an ACM is? Its the dam blower that pumps the engine air into the cabin for airconditioning...now what in the hell do you think is going to happen if it lockes up..thats right it gets hot and pumps the fumes into the cabin. That was on a dc-9. Its just like if your blower for your heater in your car burns up. Once again aviation is not perfected, parts do go bad. If they didnt then I would be out of a job.

So your position is that these "smoke in the cabin" emergency landings on AirTran are normal and to be expected, right?